Debunk vs. Possibility

[riseup]

To what level does one attempt to debunk a haunting that the debunking becomes invalid? I always try to get as much information about the paranormal field of study as I can from whatever source I can. I like to study techniques and approach because we can all pick up somthing here and there. Especially in this time when the field needs something or somebody to give it a good push forward.

Skepticism is a positive thing, without it the whole field would be a complete farce. It seems however, that skepticism is being worn like a badge of courage by more and more individual investigators and groups as proof of their legitimacy and honesty.

I see more and more where investigators conclude they have debunked a claim when, in fact, all they have done is offer an alternate explanation. To my mind the two are mutually exclusive. If I tear down a wall and discover the knocks coming from there are from a squirrel's nest - I have debunked it. If I suggest they might be from a squirrel's nest and you have nothing to worry about I have done nothing but floated another theory. This is an injustice to your client. I cannot then proudly claim I have solved the mystery

The absolute worst theory being thrown out is that high EMF readings are a probable cause for hallucinations/hauntings. That is a crock. While exposure to them can possibly - possibly - mess with your head and also affect one physically (nausea, headaches, etc.) studies have shown that less than 2 in a thousand people suffer from electromagnetic hypersensitivity. Further, there have been numerous studies on the subject by government agencies which have never definitively drawn a conclusion that prolonged exposure is harmful. The evidence is circumstantial at best and is not a cause for celebration that you have debunked a claim.

Skeptics are an important piece of the paranormal puzzle and without the yin and yang of research and investigation, there would be no validity. Skeptics deny the existence of anything outside the known scientific plane. An investigator should not be a skeptic, an investigator should be objective and recognize the distinction between the two.

If an investigation resembles a funnel with a wide possibility of explanations that eventually narrow down to a conclusion you cannot get jammed up halfway down with false "possibilities".

[davidfritzcaiprs]

I myself agree on the debunking part and just offering an alternative theory other than a paranormal alternative. Myself I am a realist I keep it in reality when investigating. And I also deduct what is reality and what people are claiming is paranormal. Its not debunking its just reality. The mind can play many tricks and it can also be influenced by people places and things. And yes the atmospheric environment we live in can influence many things which are constituted as paranormal. The mind can also be influenced from what is beyond as you can see by all these EVPs being recorded. Some are valid most are from the surrounding atmosphere right here and what travels through it naturally. This is a reality! Government studies and reality, LOL I worked for the government many years both civilian and military. I do not trust government studies from experience that is a reality.

[davidfritzcaiprs]

Also this is a reality I think I have figured out a way to distinguish if Evps are spirit communication or mental communications within the atmosphere. And its not using a k2 meter or an Emf reader. I will write more about it when I get the software and the devices I need.

[shoshenq]

Debunking:–verb (used with object)
to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated: to debunk advertising slogans.

this is the definition, and according to this not only should you be able to debunk a paranormal claim, which obviously will get more attention, but you should be able to debunk a normal claim (squirrel in the wall was a beautiful idea).

However, we should not be so quick to prove or debunk, either way. We should have a "wonder-filled" mind. Be open to any possibility, gather the evidence and whatever is left, however improbable, must be the answer.

The biggest problem we have is lack of knowledge. To take up the line of thought from the previous posts, there has been some research into the effects of EMF on people, but who has read the study? My only knowledge comes from what I have seen on TV, and read on the internet, but I have not seen a real reviewed article on what EMFs do to people's perceptions. Does exposing someone to a high EMF in a controlled circumstance lead to feelings of dread? Or do high EMFs occur in places where feelings of dread would be expected (like in a dark and damp basement). These are the questions we need to answer, because I can tell you right now, detecting an EMF in a supposedly haunted place tells you absolutely nothing about the presence/absence of paranormal activity, it the gathering of evidence (which going through historical records and finding consistent reports of hauntings through the years is the best thing I have seen so far).

For investigations we as experts, should focus on this.

As researchers we need to test what is being used today that others are using as proof that hauntings are real/unreal.

[riseup]

I always refer back to Occam's Razor stating that with all things being equal the simplest solution is probably the correct one. I've also heard of some pretty ridiculous speculation as to the reasons why someone has experienced the extraordinary. People make mistakes and people make things up to be sure, but that's part of the discovery process we go through. I just don't like seeing investigators tell people that what they experienced in their own home was a result of sonic whale sounds from the nearest ocean. (I bet if I research THAT hard enough I could start a whole new movement in the field, eh? "Yes.. it's the whales. We can all go home now and tend to our plants" ) I would also want James Randi to pay me that million dollars in cash.

It's like telling someone who has worked in a restaurant for 10 years that the figure they thought they saw one night was actually the coat rack in the corner they pass by every day. Sure, ask the question politely, but let's move on when they look at you defensively and say "Uh...no!"

You have people telling tour guides in a museum that they are mistaking wax figures for apparitions. Does anyone think these people aren't remotely aware of that possibility and already laughed it off?

As children we all get introduced to matrixing when we figure out the monster at the end of the bed is our sweater all balled up that we threw there after school. Meaning I think the museum employees probably would have figured out the haunted wax figure before they flew Lorraine Warren in.

If a buy a cigar store Indian for my living room (hey, I got a good deal), at some point I will cease to be spooked by it in the middle of the night and stop running off screaming "Save me Jeebus!"

I saw an investigator attempt to debunk a claim of a weeping statue by going up one floor and pouring water down into a bracket on the floor that anchored the statue from the ceiling below it. This was supposed to show rain leaking in or condensation was the cause. He was very proud until no water was to be found on or around the statue below. The debunking got debunked. Now who goes into a museum and pours water on the floor in an attempt to douse an ancient, priceless work of art? This was in a foreign country, no less. Who authorized this classic piece of Three Stooges mayhem? I swear to God to you that our guy Chris who is a preservation archaeologist visited the same place doing post-grad work abroad three years ago and told me he was shocked the guy did not have to claim his arm at customs when he came home for doing that.

The extreme possibility is that you have a haunting. How we arrive at that conclusion does not have to be.

[davidfritzcaiprs]

I have studies on EMF in my files and how they can cause fits if exposed to high concentrations of them. They can make people look like they are on drugs and feel that way too if exposed to certain levels for periods of time. The studies put out by the government do not even come close to some private studies put out on them. I will give you this its the concentration of the wave that has the most effect on people. Also the military has been doing research into EMF for years. Not for a good purpose either LOL. Example fire a shot gun at close range, you will get the full effect of the force of the balls coming out of the barrel of the gun. It will hit you and lift you right up off the ground and also put a very big hole where ever they make contact. Same shot gun hitting a target at a distance will have a lesser effect or no effect at all, the pellets hit and would penetrate the skin very little if at all. High concentrations of EMF waves at a close range can have drastic effects on an individual. Spread out very little effect.

[erino]

EMF- Agreed, the hardest thing to debunk considering all that is said about it, “tested” tried, blah blah.

Tell me- How can one claim that high emf levels may actually give spirits the energy or strength to manifest, while also trying to claim that emf causes paranoia or hallucinations?
So I try to think, how can one get past this. How can anyone ever prove one or the other?
Well, you can’t, ever.

I feel the same about EVP-
How can we sit here and say that passive evp is the best way to get results, or the safest way to go about conducting investigations, when if we aren’t seriously taking control over the entire investigation and making sure everything is real as real can be.
If I have a recorder going and I kick my foot to the left on this carpet and the noise sounds so much like- “we’re here” that I’m up in arms about my catch, how can I prove to ANYONE (aside from those also on the same – hey its ok to just record and see if I catch anything with out really really paying attention to what might be being recording and pass it off as evidence crowd) that what I have found is a real evp.

Davidfritz hopefully WILL be able to tell us how to know FOR SURE with his new ideas, but until then. – same struggle.

Debunking: a very difficult thing to do.
And you are right, unless we start tearing these houses down, how can you truly get to the bottom of things.

I think a lot of what goes on in ghost hunting can NOT be called scientific in the least. There are far to many loop holes.

I really like the imagery of the investigation being the funnel that eventually, comes down to one conclusion.

I just have a feeling the conclusion is that the funnel never stops spinning, and that’s just that.

THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY ANSWERS!

(not to say we won't keep looking)

[erino]

And with out upsetting people a bit of clarification:
Science to me, is controlled experiments that are always the same.
Does that ever happen in the paranormal?
Have two physics ever seen the same thing?
Has anyone come upon a residual haunting that is so scheduled that really, at 3p.m you CAN hear, no matter what, that sound of the old bell of the 1700’s ringing the sailors home (or whatever)
No. (or yes? Lol I’m new to this all, if there is, shut me off)
How much of everything is suggestion?


I think with simple group studies it would be easy to show how easy it is to make people think they hear what they hear, or how little it takes for people to think they hear one thing, only because they have had some sort of suggestion to go towards that conclusion.
That would be for evps.

And yes this sounds like another mundane government study perhaps, or something pointless, but if everyone was to poll the public using a certain criteria to see If everyone does in fact hear the same thing, then you can start calling it evidence.
Every group should have focus groups, to analyze evidence or help eliminate questionable suggestions.


I think with enough work, it would be possible to find simple triggers that cause people to see the same things when dealing with personal experience.
And some would be suggestion; You heard the story and you created the experience.
And others would be a series of moves, that happen to be followed each time the experience was had. (speaking only of residuals)
You may think this is defiantly stretching, but those would resemble something like the following.

I look at the clock on the right wall, down at my shoe, and back to the clock only to turn to the left and see a ghost.

This can be traced to simple things like the word problem/ magic trick where I ask you a bunch of numbers, ask you to pick a vegetable and you always choose carrot, 99% of the time.

If you don’t know what I mean, I can find it.

[riseup]

Our government? Lying to us? Go on.

Listen I agree, as long as we're clear on the levels of EMF we're discussing here. They would far exceed most things common in a home or office. Case in point - hold an EMF meter next to your clock radio which is probably no more than 18"-24" away from your head on your nightstand. You'll probably read about 10 milligauss or so. IF you are hypersensitive to this (again about 2 in 100 people) they may affect you slightly to varying degrees over time. Perhaps more depending on your level of hypersensitivity. For the majority of folks, they experience no ill effects. I can't speak for anyone but I never have. If you live under or near power lines or the HAARP Project you may be affected more, but you can't compare power lines to a household appliance. My one and only problem is offering it as an answer. It is no more an answer than anything else, yet many groups do so.

EMFs used to find spirits are based on the theory that spirits may use energy within the atmosphere to materialize and a disturbance in the atmosphere might - might - signal the beginning of that manifestation. An EMF detector would signal that by fluctuating readings. It's a theory and nothing more. EMF detectors, like so many other tools used were designed for an entirely different purpose than hunting ghosts. As long as we remember that when using them, we will be fine.

This is a pseudo-science albeit with good intentions and the destination might never be as challenging and enlightening as the journey itself. It's too late anyway, I'm already hooked. I waited over 40 years for the Sox to win it all - I can wait for a ghost to appear

[erino]

ONE- AHMEN, I want my full bodied apparition as well.

Two: Our government? Lying to us? Go on.
(or were you being vicious?)

What I gathered from davidfrtiz post, is that he was suggesting that possibly the government was doing experiments with low level emf emitting to the citizens in order to make them feel a bit off, was this your realization too with this post?
Obviously if there was such a thing it would be based on location.
I automatically thought: satellites emitting emf from space to mind control the people of the world~!!!!
Greatly, realized that would effect everyone, including those conducting the experiment.
There are places around the usa that don’t even allow any radio waves, - the quite zone…
There could be places, that controlled by the GOV, allow way to many. (or a bit extra emf?)

Don’t ever doubt one who has worked for the government previously and is speaking out.


Three: What were EMF meters for before paranormal investigation?
What was their original purpose?
Thank you.

[davidfritzcaiprs]

Wow Erino I was not suggesting that at all but since you want to go there look into a Dr Delgato I hope I spelled that right and stemoseiver. Also experiments at the university of ILL I think back in 1948 on wave manipulation and the human brain. And also a Dr Cohens experiments with radio frequencys and how they effect the human brain.
As far as EVPs the golden goose has been around for years right in front of everyones face. In a software, which is not the software everyone is using to determine Evp validity. I have to buy a new copy of the software and do some testing which is expensive the good software is not cheap its over a grand. And the recorders I want to use cost over 500 dollars for one recorder. So I guess I better save those cans. Oh and Emf meters were used to track down wireing within a machine or house. They would let the operator know where there was energy concentrations before working on equipment or house wireing. they can be used also in automobile electronic tracking and computer repair, radio repair et.

[erino]

I do want to go there and will, thanks.

[davidfritzcaiprs]

Your one of the Proud the Brave the Few. I commend you!

[shoshenq]

Not to throw another kink into everyone's works, but the Earth is one giant electromagnet, with a spinning core that can at times and on cycles we have not discovered yet emit EMFs, in very strange ways and what appear to be unpredictable patterns. Same goes for the sun's radiation and lots of other things that we don't understand.

One thing that must be kept in mind whether or not you are conducting real science, or trying to prove the toaster is causing you to see demons, is that correlation does not mean causation. Case in point, there is nearly a 1 to 1 correlation with the length of women;s hem lines over the years and the number of sun spots!

[riseup]

Sorry I don't get the vicious thing, but actually I was being facetious about the government thing (hence the winking smiley face). I'm hearing David loud and clear. We're about the same age and we've both lived through a lot of misinformation and disinformation in our lifetimes. David as a former government worker undoubtably is privvy to stuff we DON'T know about and I certainly have no reason to doubt anyone's word on anything.

I can only surmise how a government would justify these actions, what their goal might be or the nature of delivery. That would be a good topic itself, but in this case I began a thread about things around a house that give off EMF readings, debunking and their respective roles in a paranormal investigation. My only reference to the government was to mention inconclusive studies that have been done (not a secret) which was really just one small portion of the overall post. Where anyone goes from there is their prerogative. For me, I'm just on a debunking warpath this week.

Re: Three - (If David already answered this, I apologize) EMF detectors were designed for and are generally used by electrical contractors (and homeowners) to check connections and junctions to see if they are secure and do not give off "leaks". They are also used to detect abnormally high levels of radiation in the home via appliances and wiring that may be worn out or broken.